Peter Black and South Wales West Liberal Democrats

Debate and Approval of the Draft National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Housing and Local Government) Order 2010

Peter Black: The Welsh Liberal Democrats fully support the draft housing LCO and the desire to draw down the powers contained in it. It is the LCO that we would have liked to have seen being introduced the first time around, but we must accept where we are. The point has already been made strongly about the vote on 9 February, where every Member of the Conservatives' group present, including Mark Isherwood, voted to support a referendum on greater powers, and indicated that they would vote for those powers. They were effectively saying that the powers contained in the draft LCO, along with many other powers, would be drawn down to the Assembly so that we could legislate accordingly.

David Melding rose-

Peter Black: May I finish this point? I find it bizarre that we are now in a situation where we are being asked to draw down powers from Westminster so that we are able to legislate, yet the Conservatives are opposed to that. I understand Mark's point that a referendum is a blank sheet and that this indicates a statement of intent, but, ultimately, the effect is the same. We, as an Assembly, have those powers that we can use accordingly, and we will do so if we have a majority in the Assembly.

David Melding: I am happy to explain what appears to you to be an inconsistency, because it does not appear as such to me. We believe that the people of Wales should determine whether or not primary law-making powers should come to this institution. We urged that in 2005 when the Government of Wales Bill was being discussed. We opposed the LCO process at that stage because we thought that it equated to primary powers by the back door without asking the people of Wales. We have taken a pragmatic approach to LCOs, which is proper, but we have never said that we are committed to any LCO just because it draws down powers to the Assembly. We think that the people of Wales ought to determine our powers.

Peter Black: I understand that point too, David; I am happy for there to be a referendum for people to decide that. Having said that, you have also taken the view that you support those powers coming to Wales, yet you now oppose bringing those powers to Wales on the basis that you do not like what we will do with them. You cannot vote for a blank sheet and then quibble about what will be on that blank sheet at a later date. This is an important constitutional issue that the Conservatives do not seem to understand.

Mark said in opposing the draft LCO that the Welsh Conservative group supported some elements of it, but not others. If that is the case, you need to let us have the powers and then oppose the Measures that you oppose and support the Measures that you support; that is how it should be. There are no shades of grey here. If you vote against the draft LCO, you are voting against every single item in it and you will be held to account for that vote, irrespective of whether you want to do that or not. The powers that we will draw down are powers that the Assembly will use through the Measures that will be introduced. If you oppose us getting the powers on homelessness, council tax and second homes, and other aspects of the draft LCO, you are obstructing the Assembly from dealing with those issues and we will be justified in saying to the voters that the Welsh Conservatives have opposed those powers coming to us and are therefore opposed to us legislating on those particular issues. The Conservatives' position is clear to all of us on this side of the Chamber-

Alun Cairns: Will you give way?

Peter Black: No, I will not give way because I want to make two more quick points. I have limited time, and you have had adequate time to make your points. My points relate to the amendment that is being proposed and Mark's specific point on the right to buy. I accept that the right to buy is effectively in place already and that houses have been sold. I support the right to buy because I believe that people should have the right to buy their own homes, but a clear case is being made that, where there is high demand, there needs to be an element of stability to rebuild the social housing stock. If properties continue to be sold off in those areas of high demand, that will undermine the restocking process and that is why there is a case, in certain circumstances and where there is a proper housing needs survey, to suspend the right to buy for a limited period of time to replenish the social housing stock. That is why this particular aspect of the draft LCO-and when we have a Measure, there is no doubt that we will debate it again-will benefit sustainable housing in Wales.

Mark also referred to evidence given to the committee on the first LCO on whether the right to buy as it stands can enable you to replenish the social housing stock. Clearly, that is not the case. The person who gave that evidence to the committee accepted the point that I made to him, namely that unless the housing finance rules are changed, it will not be possible to use the capital receipts in the way that he outlined and, therefore, the argument that it is possible to restock council houses and other social housing from the proceeds of right to buy does not apply because the Assembly does not have power over the housing finance rules. That needs to be made clear because the arguments being used to maintain the right to buy are spurious on that point. I hope that the Conservatives change their mind and support the draft LCO. It is about drawing down powers, not creating new legislation at this stage. I hope that they understand that if they vote against the draft LCO, they will oppose every single aspect of it and prevent us from developing the legislation that we need through it.