Peter Black and South Wales West Liberal Democrats

Debate and Approval of the Draft National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Housing) (Fire Safety) Order 2010

Peter Black: I move amendment 1 in my name. Add as a new point at the end of the motion:

notes the length of time that it has taken for this LCO to progress to this stage and believes this further highlights the un-sustainability of the current legislative arrangements for Wales.

I will respond to that point straight away in moving the amendment. If we did not have this complex and difficult LCO system, the Measure that Ann will, hopefully, be bringing forward as soon as this draft LCO is passed could have been in place two years ago and many more lives could have been saved. So, if you want me to put it in those terms, Ann, I will do so. The amendment was tabled because we have been operating this LCO system for a number of years and this is only the second Member proposed LCO that has gone through. We have spent many hours and thousands of pounds of public money debating the transfer of power from Westminster to the Assembly on a whole range of different issues, without making any laws at the end of that process. Once we have got the LCO through, we then have to put through a Measure in order to change anything in people's lives. That is the whole point of this legislation. It is changing things for the better to improve people's lives. In the case of this particular draft LCO and the Measures that will flow from it, it will save lives and ensure that if a fire occurs damage to the property is minimised and people have a better chance of getting out of their home and not being caught by problems with smoke and the other issues that arise from a major fire. Sprinklers will have a big impact and the more homes that we can fit with sprinklers, the better the chance we have of minimising loss of life and property damage as a result of fires, and, in particular, of addressing those who are most vulnerable and at greatest risk and of minimising the danger to them.

I have talked to the fire brigade, and I know that vulnerable people are already making use of portable sprinklers. They are particularly valuable. I spoke to a fire officer about an elderly man who is in the habit of falling asleep with a lit cigarette while surrounded by bedding. A portable sprinkler was installed so that next time that he falls asleep with a lit cigarette and it falls on the bedding, he will get woken up pretty sharpish, because the bulb on the sprinkler system will burst and he will get soaked with water-but at least he will still be alive. That is what is important about these sprinklers.

The sooner this LCO system is abolished, the better. We will continue to table this sort of amendment to all debates on LCOs, because we believe that it is important to draw people's attention to the huge waste of time and resources involved in the process. If we had the powers in the first place, we would not have to go through it. Often, the drawing down of powers becomes a complex series of negotiations, not just with MPs, but with Whitehall civil servants and departments. That often leaves us without all of the powers that we need, sometimes entailing us having to go back for more, either because we have overlooked something or because circumstances have arisen that entail us having to do that.

Jeff Cuthbert: Why do you not hold a dedicated debate on the issue of the process rather than attempting to hijack a debate on an issue that people feel strongly about, and which you say that you support? You are using this debate quite opportunistically. Why are you doing that instead of holding a dedicated debate on the issue that concerns you?

Peter Black: First, we do not need to hold a dedicated debate on the process, because we are having a debate on 9 February in which we will be discussing this in greater detail. Secondly, there is nothing opportunistic about this, and it is not hijacking the debate. It is a real issue; Ann has talked passionately and sincerely about how her draft LCO and the Measures that will flow from it can genuinely save lives, yet we have had to wait two years to get to this stage. How many lives could have been saved in two years? If you think that that is opportunistic then I am sorry, but it is not. I am expressing a genuine concern about the delays that have been built into some important legislation. This Assembly, and Ann in particular, is taking a lead on this issue in Wales and in the UK as a whole, because, if Wales does this, England will, hopefully, follow suit, and so will other legislatures.

This is an important issue, and one that we feel very strongly about. Sprinklers are important, and the draft LCO as it stands is right on the mark. We need to get it in place as soon as possible so that we can bring forward the legislation. However, there is a genuine issue here about the delays built into the system that have stopped us from doing that before now. As I said, a good idea has taken two years to come to fruition. That is what concerns me, and that is what the amendment is about.