Peter Black and South Wales West Liberal Democrats

Debate on the proposed social care charges (Wales) measure

Peter Black: We support Andrew R.T. Davies with regard to these amendments. The two amendments that we have before us in this group go to the heart of the concerns that we have about this proposed Measure. Although we support the need to reduce the charges that individuals pay for care at their home, we are concerned about two particular issues.

The first is that the maximum charge that the Deputy Minister will impose will become the standard charge around Wales. There are two local authorities that currently charge less than the £50 that has been indicated at the moment. I would not be surprised if both of those local authorities increase their charges to £50 immediately so that they will be charging at the level that the Deputy Minister has now set for the charge. In those two local authority areas, people receiving care will therefore see a substantial increase in the amount that they have to pay for their care. In the other 20 authorities, there will be a reduction.

The other issue is the need to review this regularly and to involve Assembly Members in that review, and not have that take place in the rarefied heights of a ministerial office only. There has been a great deal of unease in local government in particular about the sustainability of the regime that the Deputy Minister is proposing. The Deputy Minister will be funding the extra costs incurred by local authorities in reducing their charges to the proposed maximum charge. I accept that, at some stage, there will be an agreement with the Welsh Local Government Association as to what that total cost will be. No doubt both parties will not be entirely happy, but there will be a reasonable compromise and everyone will go away and work with it.

However, that relates to this year. What will happen next year and the year after? Will there be an inflationary increase in the amount of money being made available to local councils? How sustainable is the funding that is being put into this proposal? The Deputy Minister proposes to use the joint working grant, or to abolish that grant, which has been in place for seven years, to pay for this cost. That grant funds a number of long-term and valuable schemes. Most local authorities have been working on the assumption that that money would be available for some considerable time. They have now been disabused of that. What is to say that this will not go the same way in a few years' time and that local authorities will have to find substantial sums of money to meet the cost resulting from the funding being withdrawn?

Therefore, I think that what is proposed in both these amendments is reasonable. The first aims to avoid people becoming worse off as a result of this proposed Measure, and makes that a duty placed on the Minister on the face of the proposed Measure. The second provides that there should be a review every three years that the Assembly can scrutinise in some detail so that we can be satisfied that the regime is working properly, both in the interests of carers and those they are caring for, and also to ensure that the Assembly is not cutting the budget of local government and spending its own money elsewhere, as often happens.

Peter Black: The Welsh Liberal Democrats will support this proposed Measure at Stage 4 because we believe that there is a need to lower care charges in authorities across Wales. However, I also wish to raise a number of concerns about the way in which the Government may implement this proposed Measure. I therefore stress that we are supporting this with reservations because of those concerns.

If this is not fully funded, it will lead to a huge hole in the finances of local authorities. For all the Deputy Minister's commitment to compensate local councils for their losses. At least one local authority has received no correspondence from the Minister-a fact that was confirmed on Thursday. The removal of the joint working grant, which will fund this particular proposed Measure, will simply recycle money within the system.

If the joint working grant is removed, the myriad schemes themed around prevention and proactive work will be affected. Councils, voluntary organisations and health boards will therefore have to decide whether to end these projects. This includes money that is spent on improving the woefully poor child and adolescent mental health service. If the Government plans to withdraw the funding currently provided to these services, it needs a contingency to ensure that these crucial services are not lost. The way in which this is to be funded is a major concern because it will have an impact on other services that local authorities provide. It is all very well saying that you have asked local authorities to pick up the bill, but for seven years, the Assembly Government has paid for these services, and now that money is going to disappear and it will be put in this scheme instead.

I reiterate my concerns that the maximum charge will become the standard charge. If this proposed Measure is passed, a considerable number of people will lose out as a result.

I believe that this legislation is something of a wasted opportunity. This is not the best way to tackle the problems that exist in social care in Wales, for three reasons. First, it will have no impact on the majority of people whose care is paid for by the council. We worry that a two-tier service will develop where councils will monitor the cost of people who receive care from them, and those who receive their care subsidised by the Welsh Government will increase the pressure on the Government's funding. Secondly, it will not affect people in residential care. They will still face the unfair situation of having to sell their home to pay for their care. In fact, there is a possibility that those who fund their own residential care currently will move to receive care in their own homes because of the cap on those charges, and that will put even greater pressure on the services provided.

Gwenda Thomas: On that point, do you agree that it is important that the people of Wales now engage in the 'Paying for Care in Wales' Green Paper consultation? Will you join me in raising awareness of that consultation, because that is the paper that will set out how we will go forward in future in paying for care, particularly in Wales?

Peter Black: I do agree with you that we need to engage with the consultation on funding for care. I am disappointed, as I said at the time, that the consultation is just a clone of the English version. However, I took heart from the fact that you praised the Welsh Liberal Democrat policy on this issue, which was discussed at our last conference. I hope therefore that you are prepared to discuss an innovation in the way that that is being dealt with, as we propose. Certainly, the debate is to be welcomed on that basis.

My final point on why this legislation is a wasted opportunity is that it does not address the problems of fairness that exist in the eligibility criteria. The Deputy Minister should have added these in the original LCO, and they should have been incorporated as changes in this proposed Measure.

I hope that the Deputy Minister can immediately begin work on developing a more sustainable and long-term approach to improve conditions for those people who are in receipt of care. It is on that basis that we are happy to support this stop-gap measure, but a lot more needs to be done, and many more assurances need to be given, particularly to local authorities, as well as to carers and those who are receiving care, about the sustainability of the regime that we are about to vote into existence.